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TOPIC: Hamlet Q2 version

Hamlet Q2 version 7 years 2 months ago #806

I don't know if it's so much a ruse as it is an aside of sorts. He saying that he's going to be a little like a jester to/for them.
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Hamlet Q2 version 7 years 2 months ago #807

shakespeare wrote:
I don't know if it's so much a ruse as it is an aside of sorts. He saying that he's going to be a little like a jester to/for them.

That isn't correct.

You've been badly misled by disgracefully incompetent academics, who could not read the play (or even count lines in rhymed verse when they only needed to count up to 8.) None of what you may have read about "antic disposition" in the Arden publications, and the others, and in the long history of Hamlet commentary (by academics) is true. None of it.

None of it.

There is factually no point, whatsoever, in the play where Hamlet is intentionally being any kind of jester. There is factually no point in the play where he is "pretending to be mad." There is factually no point in the play where he is "just being clownish" to mislead others.

No such thing actually happens in Hamlet.

To discuss things a bit further, Hamlet's "antic disposition" phrase has an intentional double meaning, (something which is not the least unusual in Hamlet.) The phrase refers to both age, and to clownishness, simultaneously. The word "antic" in the original printing is spelled identically to the later "antique," and that is no accident.

"To put an Anticke disposition on

"Striking too short at Greekes, his anticke sword

It's the identical spelling because it's the same word.

The functional purpose "antic disposition" serves in the play flow of events is to keep Horatio in his seat at the 'Mousetrap.' That's it. Period. That's all it does. The phrase has no effect, whatsoever, on Hamlet's behavior. It affects Horatio's later behavior in that one way.

Hamlet says it to Horatio, and Horatio is the only character to which the phrase applies (since Marcellus doesn't appear again.) It only affects Horatio's point of view. The phrase "antic disposition" has no other effect on the events, or on the other characters. None.

None.

The second meaning for "anticke," the "old" meaning, is wordplay in anticipation of the 'fishmonger' passage when Hamlet says to Polonius, "yourself, sir, shall grow old as I am," and the ensuing young-old facetiousness. That's wordplay, however, with no pertinence to Hamlet's actual behavior.

Those are the reasons, within the play, for why the phrase "anticke disposition" is in the play.

It has nothing to do with Hamlet's subsequent behavior. Nothing.

Can you stand it? - after everything you've heard and read about it (originating from incompetent "scholars," who couldn't handle the play.)

And can the academic "scholars" stand it, if I tell them they've grabbed the banana that was tossed out for the monkeys, the intentional sop to the groundlings, who Shakespeare knew wouldn't be able, mentally, to follow the play, and who couldn't perceive anything but inexplicable dumb shows and noise? Har.

Oh, well.
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Hamlet Q2 version 7 years 2 months ago #811

Willedever wrote:
The functional purpose "antic disposition" serves in the play flow of events is to keep Horatio in his seat at the 'Mousetrap.' That's it. Period. That's all it does. The phrase has no effect, whatsoever, on Hamlet's behavior. It affects Horatio's later behavior in that one way.

Hamlet says it to Horatio, and Horatio is the only character to which the phrase applies (since Marcellus doesn't appear again.) It only affects Horatio's point of view. The phrase "antic disposition" has no other effect on the events, or on the other characters. None.

This is tricky to understand. Are you saying that, when Hamlet first mentions "anticke disposition" to Horatio very early in the play, he's already planning the Mousetrap performance...?
Willedever wrote:
Can you stand it? - after everything you've heard and read about it (originating from incompetent "scholars," who couldn't handle the play.)

And can the academic "scholars" stand it, if I tell them they've grabbed the banana that was tossed out for the monkeys, the intentional sop to the groundlings, who Shakespeare knew wouldn't be able, mentally, to follow the play, and who couldn't perceive anything but inexplicable dumb shows and noise? Har.

Boyo, you're so full of yourself! :-) The text of the play itself indicates that Hamlet was considered mad; the gravedigger/clown says so: "he that is mad and sent into England."
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Hamlet Q2 version 7 years 2 months ago #814

You're full of something.

But I know Hamlet is hard to understand. I know that much better than you do.
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Hamlet Q2 version 7 years 2 months ago #818

Do you indeed? Or is it just that you cannot brook the slightest bit of disagreement...? I don't know where your attitude comes from; I have been nothing but cordial with you.
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Hamlet Q2 version 7 years 2 months ago #819

OK.. OK.... settle down. :) The passage is this:
Here, as before, never, so help you mercy,
How strange or odd soe'er I bear myself,
As I perchance hereafter shall think meet
To put an antic disposition on,
That you, at such times seeing me, never shall,
With arms encumbered thus, or this head-shake,
Or by pronouncing of some doubtful phrase,
As “Well, well, we know,” or “We could, an if we would,”
Or “If we list to speak,” or “There be, an if they might,”
Or such ambiguous giving out, to note
That you know aught of me. This do swear.
So grace and mercy at your most need help you.

I'm fully aware of the meaning of the phrase "antic disposition", however there's seems to be a bit of wiggle room for interpretation. Willedever, by your own definition "antic disposition" is "feigning madness". Please elaborate. Couldn't the phrase have been either? Or both? It's so hard to define "absolutes".

Maybe you can "gloss" that passage in your own words? To me, a likely paraphrase appears to be "No matter what you see me do or what mad behaviour you may witness, know that I still have my wits about me."
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Hamlet Q2 version 7 years 2 months ago #821

shakespeare wrote:
OK.. OK.... settle down. :) The passage is this:
Here, as before, never, so help you mercy,
How strange or odd soe'er I bear myself,
As I perchance hereafter shall think meet
To put an antic disposition on,

I'm fully aware of the meaning of the phrase "antic disposition", ...

Except, that isn't the original phrase, as printed in the Bard's lifetime. This is a case where it's necessary to go back to the original printing, as I've already mentioned, above.
Willedever, by your own definition "antic disposition" is "feigning madness".

I hope I didn't write that. Where did you see me write that?

That is most certainly not my own definition.

The word "antic" has never referred to madness. Never. It has no such definition, and it never has had any such definition. "Antic" means "clownish."

An "antic disposition" is a clownish disposition.

The incompetent "scholars" who have tried to redefine "antic" as somehow referring to madness have led people badly astray. Not that they've intended to, but they have.

If you find a book that tries to explain Hamlet's behavior in terms of "antic disposition," you're looking at a book written by an incompetent, who did not understand the play. Sad, but true.

Hamlet speaks the phrase to Horatio, as we see. Where, later in the play, does Hamlet act "clownish" with Horatio there to see it? - the answer, of course, is at the 'Mousetrap.'

So, Hamlet's use of the phrase connects to Hamlet's later "clownish" behavior at the 'Mousetrap.' Horatio will remember what Hamlet said, and keep watching Claudius, when Hamlet acts "clownish" at the 'Mousetrap.' In the play, that's the effect of Hamlet's line to Horatio.

And that's it. Period.

Incompetent "scholars," who couldn't handle Hamlet, (and generally couldn't even read it,) have simply presumed that since the old Amleth character intentionally acted mad, Shakespeare must have done the same thing with Hamlet. But that is not true. Shakespeare did not do the same thing with his character.

Hamlet is vastly more sophisticated than the crude old Amleth story. Amleth intentionally feigned madness. Hamlet does not.
Maybe you can "gloss" that passage in your own words?

Maybe I could, indeed. A long time ago. :) Click.
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Hamlet Q2 version 7 years 2 months ago #822

sorensonian wrote:
Do you indeed? Or is it just that you cannot brook the slightest bit of disagreement...? I don't know where your attitude comes from; I have been nothing but cordial with you.

You need to pay attention to what you're told. If you're mentally unable to do that, you're not worth my time, or anybody's.
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Hamlet Q2 version 7 years 2 months ago #828

Willedever, by your own definition "antic disposition" is "feigning madness".
Willedever wrote:
I hope I didn't write that. Where did you see me write that?

That is most certainly not my own definition.

That's your wording in the Hamlet synopsis here:

http://www.playshakespeare.com/content/view/76/116/

The one that came from Wikipedia.
Willedever wrote:
The word "antic" has never referred to madness. Never. It has no such definition, and it never has had any such definition. "Antic" means "clownish."

An "antic disposition" is a clownish disposition.

The incompetent "scholars" who have tried to redefine "antic" as somehow referring to madness have led people badly astray. Not that they've intended to, but they have.

If you find a book that tries to explain Hamlet's behavior in terms of "antic disposition," you're looking at a book written by an incompetent, who did not understand the play. Sad, but true.

Couldn't an antic disposition (being clownish or buffoonish) *appear* to be madness if a serious individual were to take it on (especially if it were a polar opposite of their normal character)? A bit of devil's advocate here...
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Hamlet Q2 version 7 years 2 months ago #829

shakespeare wrote:
That's your wording in the Hamlet synopsis here:

http://www.playshakespeare.com/content/view/76/116/

The one that came from Wikipedia.

Aha. That explains it. The synopsis you have here on site at this time is not mine.

My synopsis is what's on Wikipedia as we speak, at this instant - or should be, since I just checked. I posted it for them on the evening of May 2, less than a week ago. I rewrote it all, to replace the earlier synopsis they had, which was not good. I don't know where they got the earlier one.

We had a miscommunication, in the private messages. When you asked me by PM, I thought you meant at that exact time. I guess I didn't mention I had just replaced their old one. I believe I got the impression you were going to check again, or something.

Anyway, if you check Wikipedia at this time, you should now see the one I wrote.
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