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TOPIC: Bellona's bridegroom as Macduff ????

Bellona's bridegroom as Macduff ???? 8 years 9 months ago #1575

  • Charles Pecadore
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I've just finished a running discussion with another member at the Sparknotes.com Macbeth forum trying to convince him that Bellona's bridegroom was clearly Macbeth, he argued vehemently to the contrary and brought up an earlier discussion that can be viewed there.

Anyone know of a legitimate argument that Bellona's bridegroom was Macduff ?

Regards, Charles
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Bellona's bridegroom as Macduff ???? 8 years 9 months ago #1576

  • akfarrar
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Classic: http://www.knowledge4africa.co.za/engli ... th3001.htm

Always suspicious of people who say 'Great artists don't' - that's exactly what great artists do to make them great!
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Bellona's bridegroom as Macduff ???? 8 years 9 months ago #1577

  • Joe M.
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Charles Wrote:
I've just finished a running discussion with another member at the Sparknotes.com Macbeth forum trying to convince him that Bellona's bridegroom was clearly Macbeth, he argued vehemently to the contrary and brought up an earlier discussion that can be viewed there.

Anyone know of a legitimate argument that Bellona's bridegroom was Macduff ?


Regards, Charles

Wow! What reams of paper spent bickering because someone likes the idea of MacDuff being Bellona's-Baby? For those who seem unaware of Shakespeare's great proclivity for compressing time for the sake of theatricality... --Let's settle this National Geographic editorializing.

From: "Shakespeare's Holinshed (The Chronicle and the Historical Plays Compared)" by W G Boswell-Stone.

Holinshed's Chronicles, Raphael Holinshed-Shakespeare's SOURCE for the history plays, AND I QUOTE: Makbeth entering into the castell by the gates, as then set open, found the carcasse of Makdowald lieng dead there ...caused the head to be cut off, and set upon a poles end, and so sent it as a present to the king, who as then laie at Bertha." [Perth ..and etc. ] Immediatlie wherupon woord came that Sueno king of Norway was arrived at fife with a puissant armie, to subdue the whole realme of Scotland."

"The Scots having woone so notable a victorie, after they had gathered & divided the spoile of the field, caused some solemne processions to be made...[etc.] But whilest the people were thus at their processions, woord was brought that a new fleet of Danes [Danes, yet. Boswell-Stone comments that"...Shakspere was perhaps induced to make 'the Norweyan lord' an ally of Macdonwald because Holinshed says that Sueno invaded Scotland "immediately" after the suppression of the rebellion" ] was arrived at Kingcorne [that's "Kinghorn, Fife, on the Firth of Forth" for all the geography buffs.] "To resist these enimies, which were alreadie landed, and busie in spoiling the countrie, Makbeth and Banquho were sent with the kings authoritie, who having with them a convenient power, incountred the enimies, slue part of them, and chased the other to their ships. [etc.]...obteined of Makbeth for a great summe of gold, that such of their friends as were slaine at this last bickering, might be buried in saint Colmes Inch."

Boswell-Stone comments on Macbeth and Banquo being given the van and rear of the battle and Duncan commanded the main body. Following the defeat of Macdonwald, Macbeth&Banquo were sent to Fife--however far it was. THEY won the day--and the gold--NOT MacDuff.
Isaac "Asimov's Guide To Shakespeare" which pays particular attention-and wonderfully so--to the historical/geographical aspects in the Plays, talks of the 90 miles as though it were no great matter, given the time between landings, laying waste, pursuing vestal virgins, roasting wild pigs...etc.traveling, and battles-- --Even Holinshed "compresses" some....JEEEZ!

The work of matching references in the Play can be made by whomever so assiduously doubted the obvious in the first place, without bothering to do any research. In the Play, Rosse puts it all together in his greeting to Macbeth...Scene Three.


"Bellona's Bridegroom"--without a doubt-- is Macbeth. And the argument's over (whether it was legitimate or no).
Last Edit: 8 years 9 months ago by Joe M..
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Bellona's bridegroom as Macduff ???? 8 years 9 months ago #1578

  • Charles Pecadore
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Of course there is also the problem of introducing Macduff as Bellona's bridegroom when no one watching the play yet knows who he is. Macduff is not seen nor mentioned until 2.3 nor described as the Thane of Fife until 4.1.

If you think of yourself in the audience viewing the play for the first time - when "Bellona's bridegroom" is mentioned by Ross, how could you possibly identify that honorific with Macduff? That is not a mistake that Shakespeare, great playwright that he was, would be very likely to make.

Without question it is Macbeth Ross is referring to.

Regards, Charles
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Bellona's bridegroom as Macduff ???? 8 years 9 months ago #1580

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the Cawdor question-

Charles wrote:
Of course there is also the problem of introducing Macduff as Bellona's bridegroom when no one watching the play yet knows who he is. Macduff is not seen nor mentioned until 2.3 nor described as the Thane of Fife until 4.1.

Of course. He doesn't surface until much later in the Holinshed Chronicles as well. The build-up of Makbeth and what an incredible, dependable, warrior he is, WITHOUT EQUAL, is Shakespeare's point in the initial stages of the play. THIS is the crux of the tragedy itself. Which is why, Charles, you so instinctively and accurately--even without historical accounts--knew the answer to a question that didn't even need to be asked in the first place. He would certainly do nothing of the kind to water down the image by introducing an 'Usurping Hero' in such critical moments!
Every reference to events having to do with battles and victories points to Macbeth, even if it might have actually been (who knows?) Macduff who found out about /and/or/ captured the traitor, Cawdor at Fife. In terms of its theatrical importance, WE don't care. And "NBC-Live from Fife" didn't send us an 'on-the-scene' report. Obviously, Makbeth wasn't part of the "political loop". He was busy chasing the Invaders to their ships and collecting gold: "Till he disbursed, at Saint Colmes ynch/Ten thousand Dollars, to our general use."..." If the question needs desperately to be answered, it's not done by "reading into" the events, facts, and temporal statements of the play. Such forays, into what should be left to HISTORICAL chronicles--not theatrical accounts-- waste time, and create falsely- legitimized layers of opinion and conjecture--and more unnecessary questions! To whit: Holinshed also settles the question (that there should even be one amazes me) of why Macbeth knows nothing of Cawdor's fate when Cawdor is mentioned by the Weyard Sisters:[Hol. ii H. S. 170/2/52] "...bicause everie thing came to passe as they had spoken. For shortlie after, the thane of Cawder being condemned at Fores of treason against the king commiitted; his lands, livings, and offices were given of the kings liberalitie to Makbeth."
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Bellona's bridegroom as Macduff ???? 8 years 9 months ago #1582

  • Charles Pecadore
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Macbeth did not know of Cawdor's perfidy any more than Angus given his statement:
Whether he (Cawdor) was combined
With those of Norway, or did line the rebel
With hidden help and vantage, or that with both
He labour'd in his country's wreck, I know not

Regards, Charles
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Bellona's bridegroom as Macduff ???? 8 years 9 months ago #1583

  • Joe M.
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More Macbeth Factoids

Charles Wrote:
Macbeth did not know of Cawdor's perfidy any more than Angus given his statement:

Quote:
Whether he (Cawdor) was combined
With those of Norway, or did line the rebel
With hidden help and vantage, or that with both
He labour'd in his country's wreck, I know not
_________________
"Correct, Cratchit"...which leads to another question about THE question. Why would we assume that any proof lies in the idea that; because MacB knew nothing of Cawdor's treason when stopped on the way back to Forres from Fife, Shakespeare must have been describing Macduff's exploits? Holinshed never mentions anything more re: Cawdor, and neither do the Weyard Sisters in his account. As a matter of fact, Shakespeare himself was left to posit the nature of Cawdor's treason, because Holinshed specifies nothing more than he does re: same. Relative to your point re: Angus, it seems that we might even ' reasonably assume' that Macduff (for all the 'proof' we have from Shakespeare or Holinshed) could have been out of the loop at the time as well.

Yet,...and still! akfarrar's above link leads to a Dr. so-and-so, quite authoritatively laying out to his students, how one might 'reasonably assume' (the operative word being the latter of the two) the question. This whole Query smacks of the influence of what I like to call "AristoQuinian Sylly-ogism".

Cheers
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Bellona's bridegroom as Macduff ???? 8 years 9 months ago #1593

  • Charles Pecadore
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Willshill quoting Holinshed's Chronicles:
Makbeth entering into the castell by the gates, as then set open, found the carcasse of Makdowald lieng dead there ...caused the head to be cut off, and set upon a poles end, and so sent it as a present to the king, who as then laie at Bertha
.

Is there any indication of where Makbeth was when he found Makdowald's body - could it have been Forres?

Regards, Charles
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Bellona's bridegroom as Macduff ???? 8 years 9 months ago #1596

  • Joe M.
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For Charles: Makdowald's body

...at his entering into Lochquhaber, the fame of his [Makbeth's] comming put the enimies in such feare, that a great number of them stale secretlie away from their capteine Makdowald,...

interesting point--Makdowald slew his wife, children, and himself, rather than be taken. Why Macbeth "found his carcass'.
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Bellona's bridegroom as Macduff ???? 8 years 9 months ago #1597

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For Charles: Update on Lochquhaber

Banquo was Thane of Lochquhaber (now Lochaber) located in the western highlands. There is also, however, a "Lochaber" region, encompassing various geographical destinations-"Dunfermline" is particularly associated, along with others, with--guess where?--Fife. The Fife region-it's fairly large-bears investigating. But right now I'm tired of Googlemaps.
Cheers
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